Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

If you go on an extensive tour without a sleeping bag and a pillow, you deserve what you get. Seriously, quit digging.

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Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

D, I enjoyed your post and I broadly agree with the sentiments, but it's based on a very benign interpretation of the OP (and many, many subsequent posts here and elsewhere) that I struggle with enormously.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

D wrote:

Okay, so I'll admit I never really read this thread in the first place, at least not past the initial post. A lot of people know me as being stubbornly DIY and I believe that being 'nice' and reasonable (rather than a cunt) has served me well over the years I've been involved in doing DIY things (where it be putting on gigs or touring) I've met a lot of like-minded people and seriously, I thought I was as stubborn as it gets but I think I might be wrong..

Graeme/Kingmob has got in touch with me re: the upcoming tour one of my bands, Hammers, is due to do in November with  a US band called Black Elk - a tour that is booked by Mike Persil. Obviously his views on Mike are well documented within this thread and whereas I initially responded to Graeme through the medium in which he messaged me, now that he has been in touch with the promoter of the Glasgow gig on the Black Elk/Hammers tour - who is now considering dropping the gig - I felt that I should re-read the entire thread and see if all of this makes sense or justifies the backlash.

And here's the thing, I don't really think it does. I can understand it and I can appreciate the process behind the anger - Mike made a very naive post in what turned out to be crazily hostile territory (and he knows it) but I don't believe it makes Mike a cunt, or a parasite or that the bands he booked/books deserve to be boycotted because of y'know, the internet.

I met Mike on the Git Some tour. He got in touch with The Cost Of Living about playing the ill-fated Stockport matinée gig. I advised against it, he just wanted to hang out and play another show. Yeah, that show was pretty much us just playing to each other but everyone was nice, it was a most pleasant way to spend an afternoon and yeah, Mike was shocker.. a totally affable guy. I don't know how much of his posts in this thread have been edited (if at all..) but reading back, including the first post just comes across as being poorly put, rather than deliberately trying to say the UK is shit. I think a lot of the statements he made are.. well, true. He also listed a fairly extensive list of UK gig-putter-onners who we all know/respect and said they did a great job, but the general concensus seems to be to crucify the guy for, whether it be passive-aggressively or completely ignorantly, asking why the differences he experienced on his first tour of the UK were as they are.

When Hammers toured the mainland in June, we had a fucking ball. It's true, the smaller venues are comparably way better, you do get fed/watered more freely and some of the complexes in which we were lucky enough to sleep were full on mindblowing. I don't think he ever set out to say "UK DIY promoters are shit" and I think it's proper reactionary and to be honest, a bit embarassing to witness such hostility as if that is what he had said, but more "UK DIY promoters don't have the facilities to be like the mainland, any reason?" I can get behind the uneducated thought that we are not as giving, but when you look into it as he has done, he now knows/it is plain to see why things are different and how hard the genuinely DIY gig organisers in the UK work. He has a few bad gigs? Okay, shit happens and he'll have learned not to use those people again (DIY or not. I suspect not) and in future he'll book/he has booked his tours more carefully and considerately. As far as money goes.. well, it’s always a touchy subject but the bottom line is a booking agent, whether DIY or not, has a responsibility to the bands they are booking for. There is a DIY tour coming through the UK next month where the daily costs are 300 euros. That is a LOT for a DIY band but if that’s what the costs are and they are noted up front, then people know what to expect and to aim for. The 300 euro tour is booked by someone everyone knows and respects as being full on DIY, and I booked the UK dates. No guarantees but a financial understanding. I can see why some people booking tours ask for guarantees, but even when faced with a guarantee.. we have the choice whether or not to say yes or no to it. I tend to explain why I do things the way I do them and then explain how I’d run the gig and how the costs would be covered/exceeded through DIY means. If the agent is cool with it – sweet! I get to put on bands I want to! And if not, then.. well shit, some other fucking fool will do it. The booking agent is everyones favourite martyr, but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread I think, nobody is forcing anyone to work with people they don’t like or under condition they are not comfortable with. As NickC pointed out, communication and honesty are the way forward. If you don’t want to do a show for a band Mike has booked, okay cool. If you do, I’m sure you’ll meet a nice guy just trying to do the best for the bands he’s booking. I don’t even think that Nanouk or Marco at Avocado are cunts, I think they’re just dudes doing their jobs. Sure, I don’t agree with everything they do, but if I can deal with them on my own terms and I think it will benefit my town/’scene’/venue/people who go to gigs, then I won’t hesitate to work with them. They haven’t taken advantage of me, they’ve worked on a DIY level because that’s the only platform I wanted to deal on.

I've always believed in DIY to be a way of proving the corporate alternative wrong. A big fuck you in the face of 'business'. I do things the way I do because I know they are the better, more respectful way of doing things. If someone doesn't know the answer to a question or doesn't know the difference between a DIY method and a non-DIY method then I will explain the difference. If they change their mind/ways then that to me, is DIY in effect. The most poignant form of rebellion/protest in a creative environment. I don't see how any of the shit dished out in Mike's direction in this thread has been constructive or respectful and I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd just brushed off the UK as 'full of holier than thou DIY dickheads' but no, he's learned, he's read this thread I bet dozens of times and from the more recent conversations I had with him when he was booking the Black Elk/Hammers tour, he took on board my reservations about routes/costs and was more than keen for things to be done right. He approached Hammers about doing a few gigs (and then the tour) because he dug the band and I think if people are going to boycott Black Elk (or Hammers for that fact) then moreso for the former, it's their loss. Your hostility has contributed to another band, another tour booker and whoever they tell the story to, thinking that the UK DIY scene is an unbreakable, unwelcoming clique.

I realise that all of this will probably alienate me/my bands from certain people and I think that’d be a shame. I’ve always loved coming to Glasgow/Edinburgh especially, not just because they are both lovely cities, but moreso you guys are all people I consider close and selfless friends and I enjoy being around. You have never been anything but incredible in every encounter, be it on tour or with a band or just socially. But, and this is depending on if Hammers are even together come November, I don’t want to not play a bunch of gigs because of a disagreement on the internet with someone I’ve met and found to be a perfectly nice guy or not to play with a great US band who, by all e-mails accounts, seem to be nice guys and who are excited about coming to the UK, or even further-so to not tour and spend time with my band. I’d rather be involved in the process and spend more time understanding what the issues are/if they are really things I should take offence to, than to put my hands over my ears and be defiant against an issue that I don’t think is deserving of such anger or resistance.

This made sense kind-of, right? Am I a parasitic cunt?


daniel, you got the point. thank you for turning it into words here, really appreciated.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Kenny wrote:

D, I enjoyed your post and I broadly agree with the sentiments, but it's based on a very benign interpretation of the OP (and many, many subsequent posts here and elsewhere) that I struggle with enormously.

you don't really know what you're talking about, kenny. daniel's benign interpretation is based on facts. i'd like to read a few lines of what tom khuda might have to say about it..what do you think, tom?

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:
Andy Malcolm wrote:

what's wrong with unhealthy food? healthy food in this country is expensive.

smoked-ham toasts fried in butter with french fries. ahaha, how much is a kg of pasta + a can of tomato sauce and some bread  in a ldl, penny market or a aldi supermarket in the uk? come on..

Hang about, what's so nutritionally fabulous about your meal alternative? That's just carbs and water. Oh, maybe you'd tip a tin of sweetcorn in there as well just to add insult to injury? If I rolled up at a gig and was offered these two dishes I'd opt for the protein and flavour option present in the toasty.

Like Alex has already pointed out this Git Some band sound like they've got their heads screwed on. You, however, paint yourself as a world class wibble-wobbler (aka Lip Trembler)

I wish I could say I felt bad about 'UK Promoters' not being ready to kick their housemates out of their beds and/or acquire a bigger domicile, with all the financial implications this would entail, in order to achieve parity with your Jewish Grandmother selflessness but I just don't. Especially as it's not the bands who seem to mind, it's the 'booker' who wants to experience the road but doesn't even possess the miniscule amount of talent that is apparently necessary to form and maintain a touring band these days that is ejecting his toys because the Real World hasn't shaped up like he planned it.

Unbelievable. And very brave.

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Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:
Kenny wrote:

D, I enjoyed your post and I broadly agree with the sentiments, but it's based on a very benign interpretation of the OP (and many, many subsequent posts here and elsewhere) that I struggle with enormously.

you don't really know what you're talking about, kenny. daniel's benign interpretation is based on facts. i'd like to read a few lines of what tom khuda might have to say about it..what do you think, tom?

What specifically don't I understand, Mike?

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

smoked-ham toasts fried in butter with french fries.

This sounds fucking delicious. One minute you're moaning about not getting enough free beers and weed, and then the next you're complaining that you can't get "healthy" food? The reason people on here think you are an absolute tit is because you booked a 17 date tour of the UK when most bands do 5 or 6, meaning you had to go with whatever shows you could get, and then you have the audacity to hit out with borderline bigoted shit like this which tars everyone in the UK with the same brush:

maybe you should just cross the channel, get out the island more often and be more open minded, just a tiny bit.

There are plenty of awesome DIY punk promoters/collectives in the UK who will put you up in comfy surroundings, feed you well and generally be awesome. You didn't get to meet many of these people because you booked the tour badly, end of story.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Yorkie wrote:
Mike - Persil Booking wrote:
Andy Malcolm wrote:

what's wrong with unhealthy food? healthy food in this country is expensive.

smoked-ham toasts fried in butter with french fries. ahaha, how much is a kg of pasta + a can of tomato sauce and some bread  in a ldl, penny market or a aldi supermarket in the uk? come on..

Hang about, what's so nutritionally fabulous about your meal alternative? That's just carbs and water. Oh, maybe you'd tip a tin of sweetcorn in there as well just to add insult to injury? If I rolled up at a gig and was offered these two dishes I'd opt for the protein and flavour option present in the toasty.

Like Alex has already pointed out this Git Some band sound like they've got their heads screwed on. You, however, paint yourself as a world class wibble-wobbler (aka Lip Trembler)

I wish I could say I felt bad about 'UK Promoters' not being ready to kick their housemates out of their beds and/or acquire a bigger domicile, with all the financial implications this would entail, in order to achieve parity with your Jewish Grandmother selflessness but I just don't. Especially as it's not the bands who seem to mind, it's the 'booker' who wants to experience the road but doesn't even possess the miniscule amount of talent that is apparently necessary to form and maintain a touring band these days that is ejecting his toys because the Real World hasn't shaped up like he planned it.


wow, here's the answer i was waiting for! we did it and almost threw up.  but fuck it, we were experienced enough to go over this and enjoy every single second of tour.  financial implications for making some weirdo yankees have a good time at your house? GO FUCK YOURSELF! another kick in the face of all those german, dutch, austrian, french, italian, whatever.. diy friends who are happily down to let you stay at their houses, feed you, get you whatever you need to feel comfy, basically treat you like KINGS. you should just try to be nicer, more polite and open minded.

whether you like it or not, the "BOOKER" has certain responsabilities towards the band,s. it's not only about booking a tour, getting a van, a backline, taking care of work permits, ferry tickets, promoters to deal with. it's nice to be honest from the very beginning and be ready to deal with everything, every day, everywhere just as much as it's nice to be down to earth, everything but demanding and willing to help and get better in every circumstance.

luckily the real world consists of people who are willing to give whatever they have in every way, form, circumstance and do it with loads of passion and dedication.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

i am taking votes, should i lock this thread?

here is the gist:

1) mike encountered some shitty gigs on tour
2) mike booked 16 shows on tour, many of them not with respected DIY promoters what people on this board could have guided him to
3) people rightly took offence to mike generalising that DIY in the UK was full of pricks who don't know what they are doing
4) D made a nice post that seemed to suggest mike now understood that was not the case and was doing a much better job with future bookings
5) people are still taking offence. mike undoes all the good work in D's post and everyone hates him again

we're going round in circles guys...

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Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I appreciate that my post may be interpreted as being fairly benign, I'm not one to really get angry or take sides, hence my initial uninvolvement. Since Hammers got dragged into the equation I felt it neccessary to read and respond. Whereas I do feel that the original post was met with the unfair might and a huge united 'fuck you' (which for the record, I do enjoy and appreciate) I will go on record as saying that  Mike should pretty much stop talking because whether or not the points you continue raise are valid or not, the way in which they are put across are casting a bad light on you and making me look a bit of a fool for defending your character. This really isn't the way to resolve whatever issues you had with the UK (and we're talking about only a couple of bad experiences here, right?) in such a way that whereas not deserving of cunt status, WILL alienate you from a valuable set of peers.

[img]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/GodsPaper/outofhardcore.gif[/img]

236 (edited by Kenny 08-09-2009 17:25:17)

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Like I said, Dan, got no problem at all with your post, it was nice and posi, which I'm most fond of. I just think based on the available evidence you've backed the wrong horse. And I think the term used in the OP was "MOST", not a couple. So if we're talking an 18 date tour, that's a minimum of 10, surely.

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

you should just try to be nicer, more polite and open minded.

You've got to be kidding.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Kierkegaard wrote:

smoked-ham toasts fried in butter with french fries.

This sounds fucking delicious. One minute you're moaning about not getting enough free beers and weed, and then the next you're complaining that you can't get "healthy" food? The reason people on here think you are an absolute tit is because you booked a 17 date tour of the UK when most bands do 5 or 6, meaning you had to go with whatever shows you could get, and then you have the audacity to hit out with borderline bigoted shit like this which tars everyone in the UK with the same brush:

maybe you should just cross the channel, get out the island more often and be more open minded, just a tiny bit.

There are plenty of awesome DIY punk promoters/collectives in the UK who will put you up in comfy surroundings, feed you well and generally be awesome. You didn't get to meet many of these people because you booked the tour badly, end of story.


i never asked or expected anything from anyone. my demands, if i can call them that way, were nothing else than the fee we agreed on, veggie food, an accomodation for some super experienced road machines in their early thirties. no one's spoiled, no one's demanding, no one's picky. end of the story.   yeah, you're right the uk leg was booked quite badly, especially in terms of routing but i learnt the lesson. i was unlucky the first time. thank DIY things have been going much better lately...

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

wow, here's the answer i was waiting for! we did it and almost threw up.  but fuck it, we were experienced enough to go over this and enjoy every single second of tour.

Glad you enjoyed it. Stop fucking whining about it then

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

you should just try to be nicer, more polite and open minded.

Maybe, but....

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

GO FUCK YOURSELF!

So should you.

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

another kick in the face of all those german, dutch, austrian, french, italian, whatever.. diy friends who are happily down to let you stay at their houses, feed you, get you whatever you need to feel comfy, basically treat you like KINGS

You suggested not only that people should kick their housemates out of bed to accommodate touring bands but that they should also getting bigger houses if necessary. BIGGER HOUSES! In this economic downturn?

All those things are far and above what you could reasonably expect a person to do. I mean obviously you'd do it because your benevolence knows no bounds.

Maybe you've met some people on in those countries that are willing to go to the same lengths as you. Shit, for all I know it may be the norm. In which case I'm moving over there tomorrow. I won't bother packing anything, I'm sure I'll get it all handed to me.

If you truly believe that someone opting not to take the same steps in accommodating a touring band constitutes a 'slap in the face' to those who do then you reason like a child.

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

whether you like it or not, the "BOOKER" has certain responsabilities towards the band,s.

Yeah like factoring in the cost of hiring a backline, van and petrol and baancing it against what the booker can reasonably expect to make at each gig, not the same as demanding an amount of money from a promoter and then just assuming that that amount is in the bag, and making a call on whether a multidate tour in a comparatively small country is financially viable before booking it. because whilst

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

van and backline rentals don't give a shit if you had 5 days off in, 6 double shows, lost a fortune or made a bunch of cash.

They also don't give a shit if the 'booker' can't do his sums properly.

Mike - Persil Booking wrote:

luckily the real world consists of people who are willing to give whatever they have in every way, form, circumstance and do it with loads of passion and dedication.

And dull eyed platitudes as well, apparently.

Unbelievable. And very brave.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

D wrote:

I appreciate that my post may be interpreted as being fairly benign, I'm not one to really get angry or take sides, hence my initial uninvolvement. Since Hammers got dragged into the equation I felt it neccessary to read and respond. Whereas I do feel that the original post was met with the unfair might and a huge united 'fuck you' (which for the record, I do enjoy and appreciate) I will go on record as saying that  Mike should pretty much stop talking because whether or not the points you continue raise are valid or not, the way in which they are put across are casting a bad light on you and making me look a bit of a fool for defending your character. This really isn't the way to resolve whatever issues you had with the UK (and we're talking about only a couple of bad experiences here, right?) in such a way that whereas not deserving of cunt status, WILL alienate you from a valuable set of peers.

daniel, i agree with you. if kenny, kingmob, kierkegaard and some other dudes here have something to say they can come to the shows and say it there, face to face. communication? fuck yeah, everything can be solved speaking. what happened, instead? in every single post about everything (here and on punktastic) they just had to reply and talk shit, whether about a date in town or a band that was coming over and was booked by me. NICE. goodbye everyone

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Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Kenny, it took a lot to go against Graeme (and I'm paying for that personally.) he is a horse I would back time and time again, but on this case, one that would eventually affect me personally, I genuinely believe the level of hostility was uncalled for. Now, as Andy points out Mike is not quite 'undoing' everything I wrote, but he is doing himself no favours for sure. People don't have to like Mike or the comments he has made and unfathomably continues to make. We've all been misunderstood, misinterpreted and/or been fucking pricks on the internet, doesn't make us parasitic cunts though. Just a bit of an idiot at times. I know I am (open to interpretation, of course)

[img]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/GodsPaper/outofhardcore.gif[/img]

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Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

PS I would back Graeme in almost every face to face encounter. Careful, Mike.

[img]http://hometown.aol.co.uk/GodsPaper/outofhardcore.gif[/img]

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

This thread is boring now.

Mike, seriously dude, you're not a cunt but SHUT UP!