Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Not read this through properly either, but all the hardship, shit that goes wrong, driving two hundred miles to play to 3 people, fuckin makes it for me. Sleeping outdoors, pushing broken down vans, eating horrible food, and  then laughing ourselves stupid about it later..... I don't remember comfortable beds, great internet cafes, or the comparitive ammount of drinks tokens I occassionally got..... The characters, the insanity, the laughter, the triumph over adversity, and actually playing fun gigs, that's the fuckin money shot right there!.... And even some bands that get payed well, get 'looked after', still have this spirit. Honestly, anyone on tour moaning about hardship is a fuckin cunt..... Your so fuckin lucky to be doing it at all!

I've seen bands on anally retentive comfort tours, they're little neurotic individuals in fussy little worlds of their own. They don't even talk too each other, only interact to discuss how much they expect to get payed, what problems they have, or how far the hotel is from the venue, that's literally it, they don't even like each other........ Shoot 'em all.

177

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

If you're doing a 6 week tour, expecting to get paid the same as you would working at home, then you better be a pretty huge band otherwise you're going to come up well short.

I'm not into that.

178

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I think most people who consider their bands like jobs and not like hobbies (especially at our level, in a DIY/punk/hardcore context) should quit. Your band most likely won't be "that special" and unless you're a genius or REALLY bring something new to the scene, you should shove most of your expectations up your pretentious arse and stay humble. This is in response to some of the people who posted after the thread bump.

Regarding that Mike dude, I'm as shocked as everyone else in the thread by the comments he made (this comes from someone who helped booking gigs in Europe, sees them happen over here, toured in Europe and in the US and hosts bands sometimes.) I don't want to repeat the same things that have been said over 7 pages but what shocks me the most in his statements is all the money talk. DIY and money don't go hand in hand. If you want money, a rider and guarantees book tours for boring pop rock bands, not hardcore bands.

I could also complain about how too many (US) bands want to tour Europe way too early, without having enough releases out or making sure they've been decently distributed and heard by people wherever they want to tour. I mean, nobody had heard of Git Some when they decided to come over here and the "ex-Planes Mistaken For Stars" thing  isn't a real selling-point either in my humble opinion. Obviously, one can't generalise but a little part of me can never help feeling that the bands who do that kind of thing do it out of greed, thinking they can rely on the support of dumb kids who'll buy all their merch and on the promoters who'll lose money for them to pay for their holidays. I mean, otherwise, someone please tell me why Euro tours more often than not are limited to 3 or 4 countries (Germany, Belgium, Holland and UK.) I don't know...

I know I have strong opinions, sorry if some of you find them offensive.

More power to me.

179 (edited by gozzo 16-07-2009 01:28:57)

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Conor wrote:

If you're doing a 6 week tour, expecting to get paid the same as you would working at home, then you better be a pretty huge band otherwise you're going to come up well short.

I am assuming you are refering to my previous post, that isn't entirely what I was suggesting. But given the number of folk who've put into this thread about how they don't earn much money themselves, but still put gigs on/lose money etc etc, then I reckon it was worth pointing out that some of the folk who tour are in much the same place themselves, they've made the choice to head out on a massive tour with no certainty that they'll be able to afford to feed/house themselves when they get home. And therefore, they might be hoping that they could make the cash off a 6 weeker to at least partly cover themselves when they return. I don't think that is too much to ask off playing upto 40 shows in a row.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I'm interested to know how many people posting in this thread have actually toured in mainland europe.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

gozzo wrote:
Conor wrote:

If you're doing a 6 week tour, expecting to get paid the same as you would working at home, then you better be a pretty huge band otherwise you're going to come up well short.

I am assuming you are refering to my previous post, that isn't entirely what I was suggesting. But given the number of folk who've put into this thread about how they don't earn much money themselves, but still put gigs on/lose money etc etc, then I reckon it was worth pointing out that some of the folk who tour are in much the same place themselves, they've made the choice to head out on a massive tour with no certainty that they'll be able to afford to feed/house themselves when they get home. And therefore, they might be hoping that they could make the cash off a 6 weeker to at least partly cover themselves when they return. I don't think that is too much to ask off playing upto 40 shows in a row.

Are you really that ignorant? Most promoter are/have been in bands and know how it is.The bottom line is, if you are in a situation when you can't afford to tour for 6 weeks without bringing back some rent money, either don't tour, or make sure your band is "big" enough to do so.
But do not expect that because you "need" that kind of money, you can ask for it. Sound quite easy, no? That a band which has poured sweat and blood for years, building up a following and homed their skill reap some of the benefit of their hard work makes sense to me. But that doesn't mean that the "ex-member of", or "from New york" is enough to ask that. I understand that the kind of financially reckless tours you can embark into in your late teen and early twenties are not an option if you have got a good job/morgage/kids/etc in your thirties or what not, but then, you have to make the choice to either quit altogether, get your band into the independent network and try to "make it" (good luck, this will in all likelihood end up in ruins) or accept that music is your weekend hobby, you still can do WE minitours, and maybe a short couple of weeks tour once a year, still get to play music you love, meet rad people, etc. But yeah, if your band doesn't attract crowd big enough for the promoter to get you the kind of money you want, then it is too much to expect to be able to play 40 gigs...

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Magma_Times wrote:

I'm interested to know how many people posting in this thread have actually toured in mainland europe.

I have toured Europe about 15 times [Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, Czech Rep, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium], the UK 3 times, USA 3 times and Japan twice, so I guess I slightly know what I am talking about.

UK 82

183 (edited by gozzo 16-07-2009 11:06:18)

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

aramcheck wrote:

Are you really that ignorant?

I've been driving tours for the past 10 years and helping promote for about the same time. So I reckon I have a fair idea of what people doing long tours might be hoping to get out of them.
And I fully agree with pretty much all of what you say. Apart from the initial accusation.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I think to give mike some credit, if you look at his more recent tours the UK stint is a lot shorter, 5 or 6 dates now instead of 3 weeks in the UK.

Nevermind whats been selling...ROIDH

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I never got answers to these.

sad


MattWPBS wrote:

I don't think there's a problem of language here, I think the problem is that you are coming across as very passive aggressive. Here's a few things you've mentioned I'd like to know answers to:

1) You spoke about having to turn down shows because of door deals. Can you explain what you meant by this? Do you mean you decided not to do certain shows because they wouldn't agree to a £200 guarantee?
2) You seem to have some idea that it's a perfectly good and acceptable thing for DIY promoters to lose shitloads of money (whether in Europe or the UK). Why? This sort of attitude is not sustainable.
3) Do you think it's a good idea for an American band who's first album appears to have come out 3 months previously to spend seven and a half weeks in Europe, trying to get £200 per show?
4) You included in your list of things that make touring expensive "a lot of merchandise to pay". I'm not sure I understand this. Most bands I know who go on tour use their merch sales to subsidize their travelling costs, but the implication here is that it's the other way round. What do you mean by this?
5) £200 ferry costs. Until recently you could get a return for an 18 seater minibus with Speedferries for around £150 if it was booked in advance, unfortunately they've now gone into administration. Looking at the TransEuropa site at the winter prices, you're looking at £140 or £100 return. When did you book your ferry crossings - on the day or in advance?
6) Why did you think a thread about supposedly poor standard treatment in England from promoters posted on a board full of promoters from England would not get taken personally?

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

i almost spat at my computer i'm so angry.
since when did being in a fucking band give you the right to a subsidised holiday? why does being in a band give you the right to free shit? fuck you.if you want to go on tour it's your fucking choice,you figure out how much it is going to cost YOU,and if you manage to get fed/some petrol money cos people decided to come watch your meaningless band then say thankyou.

my chest hurts

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

You guys have it pretty easy in the UK. There is no way I could get a band to come to Ireland and then turn around and hand them 50 quid (the ferry to here is £500+). It just wouldn't be a goer, word would get round and no more decent bands would ever come here.. I always made sure the gig was advertised properly and had some local bands playing that people would come to see. Failing that, I always had an emergency fund (paid for by past sucessful gigs or local band-only gigs) in case anything out of the ordinary happened.

From our perspective over here, you have it pretty easy. Lots of bands want to tour in the UK and you don't really have to work that hard to keep them coming back. If some bands want to ask for £200 and a hotel, don't book them! Pretty simple. I don't understand the hate, defensiveness and pure reactionaryism (is that even a word?).

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

this is all i could think while i read this:

http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/pitw/shooting%20yourself%20in%20the%20foot.jpg

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

moshordiepresents wrote:

this is all i could think while i read this:

why? posting a stupid picture and no useful comment is one of the most pointless things you can do no a message board. why not add something constructive? otherwise you're just part of the problem.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

heartnotafist wrote:

i almost spat at my computer i'm so angry.
since when did being in a fucking band give you the right to a subsidised holiday? why does being in a band give you the right to free shit? fuck you.if you want to go on tour it's your fucking choice,you figure out how much it is going to cost YOU,and if you manage to get fed/some petrol money cos people decided to come watch your meaningless band then say thankyou.

my chest hurts

Most people that entertain crowds do so for the cash. Don't you think its a bit arse backwards that your average diy band (for all the talk of "community support" and common identity) probably makes less money than your average tuneless busker?

It's perfectly possible to have a diy network in which bands get paid more than the average rock "unsigned band" or whatnot, given that diy gigs (for all the bitching) are better attended than pub bands and whatnot. All it would really rely on is the one section of the diy community that does shit all for anyone*, the complaining masses, to pay 25-50% more for their entry. But they would turn their noses up at such an idea. Don't take this as a "diy should be this way" post, because it is what it is, but I think anyone that is doing something that's costing them time, money and effort should have a right to name their terms. If no one wants to put them on as a result, so be it. In my ideal world, diy records would be slightly more expensive, door fees would be slightly more expensive, promoters wouldn't have to worry quite so hard about breaking even, labels wouldn't go bust on the cost of a single badly selling release and touring bands might be able to buy themselves a drink (or pay a fraction of their rent) after entertaining scores of people nigtly for 1-6 weeks. It's not that much to ask.

*well, unless you count clapping, moshing, breaking venues, spilling beer, dumping empties on the floor and drinking that hip flask right in front of the venue owner for maximum effect as worthwhile activities.

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

kissthegoat wrote:
Magma_Times wrote:

I'm interested to know how many people posting in this thread have actually toured in mainland europe.

I have toured Europe about 15 times [Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, Czech Rep, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium], the UK 3 times, USA 3 times and Japan twice, so I guess I slightly know what I am talking about.

Oh I see its competition time is it?

I'm not quite as well oiled or seasoned as Jostafari, but yeh, been up/down/around and back to europe/scandinavia countless times. Don't think I could manage it now, but it was all good fun, even the shit bits, and yes, all of them were holidays, and no, no one really cared if we broke even or made any money. A lot of it happened pre-internet/pre-mp3 as well.

http://www.theprintproject.co.uk — letterpress printing

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

hellfist wrote:
kissthegoat wrote:
Magma_Times wrote:

I'm interested to know how many people posting in this thread have actually toured in mainland europe.

I have toured Europe about 15 times [Spain, Portugal, France, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Poland, Czech Rep, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium], the UK 3 times, USA 3 times and Japan twice, so I guess I slightly know what I am talking about.

Oh I see its competition time is it?

I'm not quite as well oiled or seasoned as Jostafari, but yeh, been up/down/around and back to europe/scandinavia countless times. Don't think I could manage it now, but it was all good fun, even the shit bits, and yes, all of them were holidays, and no, no one really cared if we broke even or made any money. A lot of it happened pre-internet/pre-mp3 as well.

Me too. Love it every time.

I just think there's a lot of people replying to Mike's initial post but reading it differently to how I am. As far as I can tell, he's just pointing out that for the most part, you get better stuff on tour in Europe than in the UK. And in my experience (and everyone else in bands who I've discussed this with) it's true. I've always been offered free drinks, free food and all that shit on a greater scale than in the UK....don't know why. It's just one of those weird things. I think that's what Mike was wondering. Anyone got any thoughts about why? Has anyone else had similar experiences?

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

did write something but then deleted it as it just echoed what everyone else had said and to be honest i dont want to get ripped apart for whatever ive said but here is my ramble.

Reading this did really piss me off and although im relatively new to promoting i think nick and i have broken even twice and ive definitely lost money in some way whether it be food, flyers, going to shows i wouldnt normally go to to flyer and other stuff. Im stressed at every show wondering whether enough people will turn up so we can pay the bands, make sure they are happy and play to a good crowd especially overseas bands. 80% of the time this has not been the case but not once has a band complained about the lack of numbers, demanded more money or anything ridiculous and instead they they appreciate being able to play the show and anything extra is a bonus but a place to stay is always important AND THIS IS WHY I PUT ON SHOWS AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. If i was to ever put on an ungrateful band then i wouldnt put em on again.

see i dont know where this is going but promoters in the uk work damn hard fighting big guarantess against a lack of numbers because people are seeing the latest new era band and expensive venues who more often than not dont give a shit about the show. We have a gift in the fighting cocks as they care.

As long as the band plays, get paid enough to cover their journey and is fed and given a place to stay if necessary then i see anything extra they get as a bonus and 99% of the bands we work with have been stoked with this.

but yeah i think you shot yourself in the foot with your first post and it was only going to downhill from there. i think you owe an apology to every diy promoter in the uk and a beer

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

thanks smile

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

persil booking - the new letxdown

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

i think you should fly out and fight him

I'm not singing for the future
I'm not dreaming of the past
I'm not talking of the first time
I never think about the last

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

In the UK you get at least a crowd with a good sense of humour in contrary to for example germany

UK 82

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

Pandasrule wrote:
heartnotafist wrote:

i almost spat at my computer i'm so angry.
since when did being in a fucking band give you the right to a subsidised holiday? why does being in a band give you the right to free shit? fuck you.if you want to go on tour it's your fucking choice,you figure out how much it is going to cost YOU,and if you manage to get fed/some petrol money cos people decided to come watch your meaningless band then say thankyou.

my chest hurts

Most people that entertain crowds do so for the cash. Don't you think its a bit arse backwards that your average diy band (for all the talk of "community support" and common identity) probably makes less money than your average tuneless busker?

It's perfectly possible to have a diy network in which bands get paid more than the average rock "unsigned band" or whatnot, given that diy gigs (for all the bitching) are better attended than pub bands and whatnot. All it would really rely on is the one section of the diy community that does shit all for anyone*, the complaining masses, to pay 25-50% more for their entry. But they would turn their noses up at such an idea. Don't take this as a "diy should be this way" post, because it is what it is, but I think anyone that is doing something that's costing them time, money and effort should have a right to name their terms. If no one wants to put them on as a result, so be it. In my ideal world, diy records would be slightly more expensive, door fees would be slightly more expensive, promoters wouldn't have to worry quite so hard about breaking even, labels wouldn't go bust on the cost of a single badly selling release and touring bands might be able to buy themselves a drink (or pay a fraction of their rent) after entertaining scores of people nigtly for 1-6 weeks. It's not that much to ask.

*well, unless you count clapping, moshing, breaking venues, spilling beer, dumping empties on the floor and drinking that hip flask right in front of the venue owner for maximum effect as worthwhile activities.

it probably shows in my attitude that  have never been on tour in a band.i guess the way i see (albeit naively i'm sure), is that if you're embarking on a 6 week diy tour, and are doing it because you think you'll make a bit of money, or see it as a holiday at other peoples expense then you're a bit of a cunt and don't quite see the irony.
it would be awesome if more bands could earn something for their toils but i'm sure no diy band is born with the idea of being a nice little side earner.i'd like to think that they had to.

i also think you're right jack,most people at shows are fucking tight,a show being £7 for example is seen as expensive (i understand this is relative)

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I think the millions show at cavern exeter is going to be fun - ono p are supporting we are looking forward to it - lets hope that none of this stuff regarding money or whatever makes it into the venue? know what i mean?

Re: England vs EUROPE. different ways of treating bands on tour

I love the fact someone suggested Gozzo was ignorant of the machinations of touring.  There is more tour experience, mileage and knowledge contained in that brain and body than in the rest of the people using this site combined. Probably
a hearty lol.

dont struggle!